Description
Whether you’re looking for your first role in the ecosystem, or to climb further up the career ladder, the right skillset can open up more opportunities than ever before. Our panel of Salesforce experts, hosted by DevOps Advocate Jack McCurdy, discuss the essential skills you need to differentiate yourself in the marketplace. They focus on the ever-evolving world of DevOps along with the soft skills that are often overlooked but are crucial for advancing your career.
Useful links:
– DevOps Launchpad
– DevOps Diaries
– Upcoming events
Connect with our panelists
– Jack McCurdy: DevOps Advocate, Gearset
– Stephanie Herrera: VP Customer Strategy, Roc Search
– Amy Oplinger Singh: Head of Growth and Partnerships, Dataimporter
– Sarah Metcalfe: Chief Happiness Officer, Happy Coffee Consulting
– Matt Pieper: Director of Engineering (Enterprise Applications), LeafLink
Transcript
Welcome.
Welcome. Welcome to this webinar. How to stand out in a crowded job market. Thank you so much for joining us.
We do have quite a lot of to cover today. So, we're gonna go ahead and dive on into the webinar right about now. Hopefully, those that are trickling in, can join the conversation, won't be too too far along by the time that they do join.
But as a reminder, I might be repeating myself for a few of you that joined early, but we have the chat open.
So please drop messages in there. Tell us where you're listening from. The q and a functionality is open too. So if you have any questions for any any of the panelists, feel free to drop questions in there, and we'll get to them. Hopefully, it's hopefully, at some point, there's a lot to talk about and a lot of amazing knowledge and insight to to get out of these amazing panelists today.
But I'm gonna stop sharing my screen, and you should be able to see all of the panellists, that we have today.
I'm gonna gonna go around the room and introduce introduce them all for you so you know who all these lovely people are and the respective panelist. If you wanna wave or go woo or something, as, when we get to you, that'd be great. So we have Amy Oplinger Singh joining us today. Amy is a three time Salesforce MVP and is currently head of growth and partnerships at data importer dot I o. Hi, Amy.
Hi, everyone. And I'll give a hee hee, and people that know me know why.
We have Sarah Metcalfe. Sarah Metcalfe is chief happiness officer at Happy Coffee Consulting and is also a founding board member for the community conference Inspire East. Hi, Sarah.
Hello. And I guess that means I should go woo hoo, and I'll maybe try and explain that later.
If you're wondering what chief happiness officer is, then I am gonna be asking Sarah exactly what exactly that later. So we are gonna find out. No problem. We have, Stephanie Herrera, who is Salesforce MVP hall of fame, currently vice president of customer strategy at RockSearch, and also a cofounder of PepUp Tech, the founder of Salesforce Saturdays, and a board member for Meravis. The list of accomplishments and accolades goes on, but hello, Stephanie.
Hi, y'all. Excited to be here with everybody. I agree with, MHD, brilliant people on this panel. I'm so excited to be a part of this.
And last but not least, Matt, hope hopefully, you don't mind mind me. You're you're the you're the last one on my screen. I have just been going around, but, we are also very privileged to be joined by Matt Pieper. Matt Pieper is director of engineering for enterprise applications at LeafLink.
Some of you may be familiar with him if you spend any time on LinkedIn at all. He is quite prolific with his thought leadership these days, and it's highly worth going and connecting with him. Hey, Matt. Hey.
Hey. Excited to be here.
Cool. Thank you all so much, and thank you all so much for spending your Wednesday afternoon slash evening with us. We're a bit we're even split here between UK folks and, people in the US on the panel. So thank you thank you for that, and thank you for spending some time with this. So Salesforce job market.
I'm sure judging just by the number of attendees that we have in the room right now, this is a really poignant and pertinent topic for everybody.
I think if it hasn't happened to us directly, we all know somebody or have been in contact with various people in the Salesforce ecosystems that are either looking for work due to redundancies or other reasons, or unfortunately, just folks not quite happy with, where they are in the ecosystem right now. So we really wanted to bring, this panel together to discuss why why that is and some of the ways that you, if you are a job seeker or looking to change roles or advance your career where you are or perhaps elsewhere for for these amazing panelists to give you that insight, give you some context, and give you some knowledge tips and tricks that you might be able to use to take forward in your job search. And, Amy, I'm gonna come to you first, because, don't don't give me that look. So we're gonna come to come to you first.
It's just my face tech.
I'm gonna come to you first. And, for a little bit of context for, the attendees, you've recently been in the job market yourself. So you recently landed your role as head of growth and partnerships at Data Import. You've been in, see, what, a month or so now.
With Yes. Your experience active live recent job market experience, what is it like? What's standing out to you, in that job search process?
Yeah. So I hit the lottery this year actually with being laid off twice.
So it's rough. It's not like anything I've ever experienced while transitioning into the Salesforce ecosystem.
It's a completely different ballgame right now. And both times, what I've realized is, companies are really looking to do a lot more with one person.
So your skill set that cut it four years ago, five years ago is not enough anymore. They're looking for not only technical know how. You have to know, you know, DevOps, data management, automation, but also maybe be client facing, have really good communication skills. And that's not a lot of people have those kind of hybrid skill sets.
They want somebody that can come in and hit the ground running. There's not a lot of ramping time, or training time or on the bench when I was a consultant. There was there's just not any of that that I'm seeing.
So candidates who are successful, I think, are showing that they can, you know, wear a lot of hats, and make changes quickly, and really kind of align their skill set with what the company outcomes are and how they can show the interviewer, hey. I'm gonna help you reach those goals.
And maybe that wasn't a conversation that I was having four or five years ago.
Yeah. Matt, does that resonate with with you, being in your seat, a hiring manager and having the the opportunity to speak to a lot of candidates regularly through the hiring process? Is that something that you look for as well? Or are those kind of soft skills in that whole package, I guess, more important now than they have been?
Yeah. I don't know if I'm the exception to the rule, to be honest. Right? Because I try to be a pragmatist and go, there is absolutely no way in this expanding ecosystem that everyone can know everything.
Right? And so I level set myself in that mindset as a hiring manager to look for those specific skills. Like, I'm trying to build a portfolio across my team, and what are those skills that are missing, and how can I tweak individual? Right?
Because not everyone can be everything. Like, I also come from a traditional software development space where we don't expect our engineers to know DevOps, right, to know data modeling, to know security. They know each like, a little bit of those pieces to get their day to day done. Right?
Like, how do I troubleshoot my local environment? But we lean on our DevOps team, right, who are subject matter experts to do that. And so I've always done that pragmatist approach. However, you know, I still run lean teams.
Right? Like, we still have to lean in from time to time. And so I look for more of those I wouldn't say, like, subject matter experts across all, but, you know, some of those folks who can be intellectually curious and dive into other areas where we have those gaps. But, I've definitely heard what Amy's saying.
Right? Like, do more with less is is a key over, you know, post pandemic. So I always try to to kind of laying in that middle so I don't burn out my teams or or really myself.
Yeah. For sure. And and, Stephanie, working for a talent agency, what are the challenges that your clients are facing when trying to secure the best talent?
Amy's alluding to you. They need to have more skills than they might have previously, and and Matt's Matt has that more maybe more pragmatic view, across that table. But what what is RockSearch seeing, and what are you seeing in the market right now with those client challenges?
I think, you know, since the pandemic, a lot of you we're all working differently.
Everybody's working differently and that's constantly changing. And a lot of clients and hiring managers, their budgets are being cut. They're being forced to bring people back into the office, these rigid back to office policies that they had no say in but are having to find talent that can do that. So that's some of the biggest challenges that that that they're seeing. Again, so going out and finding it, but let's be honest, the the most in demand talent can say, hey. I'm gonna work from home, or I'm gonna do hybrid, or this is the way I wanna work.
And if you're fortunate to live in a bigger city, like, you know, where the office is located, it's not so hard to go into the office maybe once or twice a week. But if you don't, then you're miss they're missing out on a lot of talent. But, again, it's having those conversations with leadership to say this is where we're at, and we want the best talent. We have to be a little more flexible with what we're looking for.
And that's one reason why I am at rock search. We are able to help hiring managers have those conversations, or when they they just get that resounding no. This is what we're gonna do. We go out and find that talent for them in the places that they live to so that they can fill those roles.
But a lot of it is finding the talent, meeting them where they are because there's just so many changes still happening. I mean, the election's right around the corner. Everybody's waiting to see what happens with that.
And, you know, seeing, like, if they get more budget, they get more flexibility themselves to hire. A lot of them are just like us, you know, their hands are tied, and they're they're they're doing the best that they can with what they have to work with.
Yeah. Yeah. And so and, Sarah, you you spend a lot of time career coaching and investing in your happiness at work. I'm gonna I am gonna ask you what what happiness at work means and what achieve happiness officer is is in just a second.
Mhmm. But is that something what about, some of the people that you've coached or the businesses that that you have coached? How are they approaching these kind of challenges? And maybe at the at the kind of the senior level, the people that are hiring managers or what have you.
What's kind of their take in their view? Are they experiencing the same things that we as technologists are also experiencing?
Yeah. I think so. I think it it's going across everywhere, and I think it's one of the, you know, one of the things that that people are really interested in. You know, after the pandemic, I think everyone has had a level set.
They've they've had a a different viewpoint on what's happening. And then we there's been a just so much turmoil that, you know, not just that, but then there was all sorts of turmoil and war, and there's all sorts of things going on everywhere in the world. And so I think everyone is often reevaluating what their priorities are, what what's important to them. Is it you know, are they in the in do they have the ability, as Stephanie said, to say, actually, no.
I'm not gonna come into the office, or do they have to?
Is it is it about where they want to work? So I think it's it's very much something that is on all the leaders' minds that I that I come across.
How do you balance this? Because it is a balance.
And how do you, work with attracting the talent and retaining the talent.
And then how do you also, you know, do more with less.
I think it's it's a challenge for everybody involved. And so, one of the things, I guess, where happiness plays a part in that is really kind of understanding yourself a little better.
One of the interesting, I think, things that you see is there's a lot of burnout happening. Right? You've got burnout levels at the highest they've ever been. But there's a lot of research that is saying that when people switch roles, they don't necessarily it doesn't actually solve burnout.
So when you leave because you think that job is too much, go into a new job. And, actually, there are some things that we need to do for ourselves, that that can help us in that space. And some of us who love our jobs and love where we're working and all those things, those of us who are lucky enough to work in that space are actually at the highest risk of burnout. So we might actually have the same behaviors no matter where we go.
So I think there's there's some self awareness on both sides that that that's what I'm seeing.
Yeah. Yeah. No. It's, burnout's such a topical thing and, you know, do more but less is can be a certainly compelling issue.
Yeah.
Amy, that that kinda takes me takes me nicely to you. So you started a started a new role, month month or so ago. So you can correct me if I'm wrong. Am I wrong?
You're correct. Ten one.
So Ten.
Just a baby shy of a month.
How are you finding settling into a new role in this market, and are you kind of feeling that pressure, potential risk of burnout already? I mean, not because of where you work, but maybe the is there kind of any extra pressure you feel because of the way that the job market is now to go in straight away and perform?
I'm gonna say no, but that's because I've done the work, and I had a serious case of burnout in twenty twenty, which kind of made me shift my path. I am a a writer. I like I'd have my notebook. So when I was having my burnout problem, I just wrote down what I loved about my day and what I hated about my day. And the the hated was bigger, than the loved part, but it it led me down to a path of kind of introspection and, like, how do I want to spend my day? And with this current position, I was really, really lucky that the founder, he said, you know, he had kind of a vague idea of what he wanted from me, but he allowed me to write my job description, and I wrote it to what I wanna do with my day and all of those things in my, like, notebook. So, absolutely, it's a it's a it's a world of difference, and it's a privilege to be able to I'm getting giving myself goosebumps.
It's a privilege to be able to feel that way, and he continues to walk that walk even, you know, only in thirty days I can see that support from his side. It's it's wildly different from what I've experienced in the past. So, it was a concerted effort on my part to not go back to the mindset I had in twenty twenty.
Yeah. Yeah. Tell tell tell us about this list. How can people write their own list? Where did you start when you crafted this thing?
Oh, god. So I was like, oh, process builder. Nope. Don't wanna do no more of those.
You know, and just like it it was literally because it was a horrible project. It was like, I was month eight, and I was expecting to roll off, and they told me it was gonna be another year, and I just was done. And then the pandemic, and then I got married. And dealing with all that, it was just everything all at once.
And so I had literally two separate little notebooks and just love and hate and just would write in each of them daily.
And it actually opened up my eyes to I'm sure everybody on the call knows the titles are wildly different in the Salesforce ecosystem. You don't know what job title is gonna be what. So I just started typing the terms that I liked into LinkedIn.
And customer success and sales kept popping up and client management and all these things. So that led me down that path. So it was just as simple as that. Just really just taking note of of what made me feel good in the day, what I hated.
Being real clear on what I hated helped me clarify what I loved. And, I think once I became clear on that, it it really started my path down to where I am today.
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Matt, from from your your side of the table, as well, you talk about Amy's talked about the ambiguity of job titles. And, you know, one of the big conversations that I find that a lot of people are having these days is a Salesforce admin isn't just a Salesforce admin anymore. They're they're required to do a bunch of other things.
What's are there anything candidates should be looking out for in job specs, to either really lean into where their skills stand out and things are things that are on the job spec might be slightly more negotiable, in terms of what they can bring to the table.
Oh, wow. That's a phenomenal question.
I think it's along what Amy said. Right? Like, know what you like and what you don't. I see a lot of candidates sometimes walk into a role, and I've I've done this myself in the job market where it's like, hey.
I gotta get out. Right? I gotta get a job. I have to, you know, put put money, in the bank.
Right? And so we look at those job descriptions, and we say, yeah. There's some stuff on there I'm not in love with, but I'm gonna go ahead and apply anyway. Right?
But I think it's more the what's not on or what's on the job description and and, like, more really, like, what are the hidden things in that JED. Right? Like, I think when you interview and when you look at job descriptions, it's a it's a bit of a game. Right? It's salesmanship on on the employer side, and it's gamemanship as you as a candidate.
And it's really looking at that job description, under the lens of like, hey. HR, HurtWriter, your people team, or you just had to get a JD out there. And a lot of the times, it's us just throwing stuff at the wall. Right?
It's yeah. I hate to say it, but we're like, hey, GPT. I I know these skills. Throw them in here, and and let's just get this papered.
It's really more that first conversation with the recruiter or the hiring manager that I say lean into those. Right? Get that door open and just pepper them. Right?
It's a two way street. Ask them the questions. Ask them how their team's structured. If they have CICD or DevOps, right, ask them what tool they're using, how they're using it.
And then if they don't, right, like, why aren't you using it? Actually have that open minded question, and don't think of it as, like, a process, to get a job. Think of it literally as your as a project. Right?
You're you're building that. You're figuring out the requirements for yourself for that role. Same thing vice versa.
For the hiring managers out there, do better than me. Don't just throw stuff at the wall.
Actually put stuff on there and give it some thought.
And I will also add, don't add certifications if you don't need certifications. Right? Like, don't use that as a blocker. If you're a partner or a consultant and you need those to to add your account, be transparent about it. But you're gonna miss on a lot of talent who doesn't apply because you have a certification or an education requirement. And if you don't need it because of some regulation, don't put it on there. Right?
I'm not sure if I actually answered your question, but I I I I loved it.
I I I I love the I love the answer anyway. That Stephanie, that leads me quite nicely to you. Is our unrealistic job spec something that you see from your clients when it comes to the search search process and what they're looking for?
Absolutely. That's what made me wanna go into recruitment. You know, from my work with PIPUp Tech and Miravis and Salesforce, Saturday, we were meeting with a lot of hiring managers, you know, that we're trying to place talent. And even, you know, you know, when in my recruitment space, I go I went on this meeting with a pretty well known organization, very large, and my colleague was like, you know, I've been trying to, you know, get in you know, place talent with them. They're having a really hard time. I took a look at the job description, three page job description.
It looked very outdated. I was like, no wonder. This just doesn't make any sense. And so when I got in there with the two hiring managers, I asked them. I said, you know, who created this job description? And they both looked at each other very sheepishly and turned red, and they said, the previous hiring manager three years ago. Three years ago.
They're trying to fill a tech Holy cow.
Tech role. And you're right, Matt. I mean, the a lot of hiring managers are just doing a job description together because they too are doing more with less. They don't have the time to do that.
They've got projects that they've got to fulfill and manage and do. The last thing they have time to do is put together a job description, sit with the internal talent team, and figure all of that out. I mean, that's what I was seeing day in and day out whenever I was talking to hiring managers. That's why I went into the recruitment space so that I could have that conversation with them and be like, hey.
I know your dirty secret. You know? I everybody does this. It's okay. Let us help you find the right talent because we're in tech.
I've done the role. Like, you know, we need to talk to your team that are doing the job. You know? Let we're we're having the conversations with the talent that's out there.
But, yeah, a lot of these job descriptions, they're just copying and pasting them from other companies and other, roles, and they're really just they're they're I'm not gonna say that they're they're rubbish, you know, being here in the UK.
But, you know, it's it's it's a box that they have to check, and it's, again, a thing where we gotta work differently. And why do we do the same outdated processes? Why aren't we doing things changing and doing it different and working more efficiently? Being smarter with what we're doing.
Working smarter, not harder. But, again, you gotta have those conversations. And, again, it's it's it's a thing where people just feel like they have to have it out there to get the the right talent in. But, yes, there is a lot of that.
It's very common.
Yeah. And I also wanted to stay with you, Stephanie, for something that Matt said at the the end of his his last response in, the potential to to miss out on talent from either underrepresented groups or career transitioners, like I say, cofounder PepUp Tech and working with Miravis. What's your advice to those hiring teams when when you look at some of the groups that you work with and some of the skills and the qualities that might come from military backgrounds or, or elsewhere?
It's just like Matt said, they're missing out on that hidden talent.
Especially with the underrepresented groups, a lot of the people that are in these groups, they don't have access to tech.
This isn't a world that they come from. And a lot of times, because of their life experiences, they have faced a lot of obstacles that require problem solving and resilience. And those are the kind of qualities you want on your team because it's something that can't be taught. They come with that naturally, and they're proactive, and they know how to thrive in chaos.
Like, let's be honest. There's a lot of chaos in tech, especially when you're working with stakeholders and customers and all the changing demands. You want people that that's that's no big deal. I've I've I've been down that road.
I can handle that. And it is not just underrepresented communities that need that person like myself and Selena or Hector who would go and we knew our talent. We knew they they were qualified. We knew they had the skills, and we sold them to the hiring managers.
Because on their own, they wouldn't have been able to sell themselves. They could do the job, but they couldn't ace that interview. So many hiring managers are hiring people who can ace the interview, but who can't ace the job. And that is that is even with people who don't fall under the underrepresented group.
Salesforce Saturdays. When I worked with people that I knew that they were qualified, they'd show up every Saturday. They'd work through their problem solving. They'd they'd sit there and show, you know, how they would solve it in in their instances, but they didn't know how to interview.
They don't they don't know how to put it together a resume. I had to do a resume a couple years ago. It was a I hated it.
It was I I'm not good at it, and I don't like it.
It's too tedious. And so, like, most people don't know how to do that. Most people don't know how to negotiate a salary, and they don't know how to sell themselves. It's very awkward.
Even when I go you know, it's been a long time since I've had to do an interview. I've gotten to that place where it's more of a conversation, but I have a hard time in an interview because I don't like talking about myself. And you have to be good at that, and not everybody is good at that. But that doesn't mean they can't do the job.
You know? I had to start looking at myself as a product so I could sell myself, but I I'm I'm good sales at Dell, so I knew how to position myself. But not again, not everybody has that skill set. And, again, that's why it's important to work with someone like myself or partner with me in RockSearch, and we can be that person who can sell you.
It's very similar to a lot of companies do referrals for their employees. They ask their employees to refer somebody to the company. And a lot of times, those referrals get the job. You know why?
Because their friend at the company has given them the inside track. They've told them what's important to the hiring manager, what's important to the the team. They've given them the questions to the interviews, and and they've sold that person to the company. So they've got a warm lead into there, and they've got someone there selling them.
For those people who don't have that, who don't have a friend, who's got a job at their company, that's why you want to work with somebody like myself. That's why I've gone back into recruitment and into talent is so that I can do that for those people who don't know how to do it, but who do have the skill set to do the job, who do have the the work ethic and the team building and know how to work with a team. They just don't know how to ace that interview and get their foot in the door. And hiring managers don't know to go look for that, and they're and they're so busy.
They're just checking boxes, and they're they're getting warm bodies in an interview and trying to get somebody on the team as quickly as possible. So, yes, you miss it out. You miss out on the good talent. And the good talent misses out on those opportunities, and they're out there struggling, or they're going through layoff after layoff, because of the market that we're in.
And that is exhausting entirely.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. With just a just a quick note for all the attendees. So there's lots of great questions coming into the q and a, and I am gonna I'm gonna pivot to some of those in just a second.
But, but, Sarah, to come come off some of Stephanie's points about the candidates being able to sell themselves and not comfortable doing so. Obviously, partnering with somebody like Stephanie in RockSearch is an amazing thing to do, and they will help get them get people in the door. What's kind of your advice when you're coaching people in on in how to sell themselves and realize, you know, the power of them, the power of you, if you will?
I think that's great. I mean, one thing, I guess, in in this is less on for people, but for for organizations, which the power of them is hire for attitude, train for skill. Right? In tech, we are not, brain surgeon.
So you would rather have that kind of person as you described, Stephanie, coming in the door, and then we can train people up. You know, you can teach them the skills.
What you can't what you can't necessarily teach is that attitude, that healthiness, that willingness, all those things that people bring themselves, those soft we call them soft skills. I really dislike that as a description. I think those are the human skills. Right? And and I think, Matt, you were talking about, you know, everything that that needs to come into an organization and every everywhere that people need to be and, Amy, all the things that everyone needs to show up as and bring to the table.
So I think that one and then also getting people to do the jobs rather than being interviews. I think there's a great kind of, conversation around, would you hire the the sports pundit from TV or the person who does the sports, the person who can talk about it or the person who can play the sport. Right? And, and you'd end up with not a very good sports team if if what you did was get the person who was really good at talking about sports and knew all the statistics.
Right? So it's just like the it's the same thing for us. So I guess that's that's one of the things for people to show up. You know, talk about those.
Think about your cross functional skills, your human skills. Right? To Amy's point, what do you love doing? When you talk about the things you love doing, you automatically have a a more positive energy.
You're able to share those things. So tell stories about when you've done something, ask questions, and and don't be shy about the fact that you might not have something.
I'm someone who, has had a I'm so lucky. I've had the most wonderful and amazing career. I don't have a degree.
And it took me so many years to get over that fear.
But one of the easiest ways to lower the barrier to underrepresented people, as Stephanie said, is to to remove that requirement for a degree.
But as yourself, you know, think about what it is that brings you joy, that brings you happiness. And as soon as you start to talk about that, people will see it. And and, hopefully, if you have a good hiring manager who's paying attention, they might start to to bring those threads out. I think also something that I've just recently started doing, is paying less attention to CVs and actually that first conversation being a lot more important, because some of the people, even in in the the community events, paying some less attention to how people were able to craft their pitch and really try to read between the lines and understand what they're bringing to it.
And then having a call with some people to be like, there was something in this. You know, maybe there was spelling mistakes. Maybe there was the word crafting wasn't quite right, but they're you know, paying attention. It's so important to put more effort into that that moment and and then letting people talk about their stories and, and being curious.
And and when you have that opportunity, if you can, thinking about preparing those things that you love to do, and and that that create that passion for you even if they're not necessarily in that space. I think that's what I would try to to get get people to do and and talk to a coach. How you know, there's amazing people in in, you know, like Stephanie who will help you talk and position yourself. There's, all sorts of personal coaches you can look at and and people who will, you know, reach out on LinkedIn and talk about all of these things.
But I think it's it's really important for us to to do that. I think the other thing I would do is, Jean, I've just seen your your message that goes against someone who can hit the ground running. Yeah. Really pay attention to the wording in the organization's job posting, because really thinking obviously, we're not always in a position.
Like, sometimes you do just need a job. You have to pay the mortgage. You have to pay the bills, and I get that. I have been that person many, many times in my life.
And so make the very best of it and try to find the things that you love doing and do more of those. Hopefully, your love bucket is ever so slightly more than your hate bucket in a day, Amy, when you're in those roles. But if you are in a position to pay attention, culture is in everything we do. So an organization's job posting or their website, look at the language.
If they're talking about things like hit the ground running, work well under pressure, all of those types of things, You can go for that interview, but I would question you know, feel free to question people about that because a lot of that requires, people to be turned up to eleven, and it creates an environment where a burnout culture is what exists, and that's actually quite a toxic culture. And so is that gonna be the right thing for you? So so paying attention to your values and understanding yourself, again, self awareness, and then also looking at the organization and and how are they showing up.
How do they show up at the interview for you as well? You know, is there multiple people? Do you see do you see people who are the same or different people?
Do you get to have multiple spaces to show up as your best self both doing and talking because that's not everybody's skill set. So I think those are some of the things I'd think about.
Yeah. So so some really some really great and interesting points there, Sarah. And, I do wanna come to one of the questions in the chat based on what you've just said, and, I'll throw it out to to to to to which one of you wants to answer this.
But how big a part does soft skills play in hiring decisions or or are soft skills more important at entry level roles?
I'll take that. It's actually was part of one of my answers to one of your other questions.
You've got on mute.
Sorry about that. Or as Sarah called it, not soft skills, human skills. I love that. It's so true. They are human skills.
It's more important than ever now. A lot of teams you know, not everybody, for one, has a manager like Matt that's the exception to the rule or Sarah, that that, you know, that knows how to hire and what to look for. So many teams now are offshoring. You know, it's just it's it's it's the norm now that we're offshoring where they've got less budget, so they're trying to be creative. Many I've had hiring managers that are good friends tell me, I've been told I can no longer fill roles with them in America. I have to go offshore. All of the rest of my team has to be offshore.
So onebut whenthe kind of people they need for that, though, still are those who have those strong human skills, those soft skills that who can communicate, who can work with the stakeholders, who can work with the customers, and who can work with the offshore team because, you know, yes, they're doing more of the hands on the config work and that, you know, and they're very black and white and not a lot of the gray, and that's where they need people who can think in the gray, who can work with stakeholders. The communication is very strong, who can empathize, who can think through a situation, and whowho's not just an order taker, who's strategic, who's also solving a lot of the cultural differences, who have that empathy, that high emotional intelligence.
Those are all human skills that are very important and, believe it or not, aren't very common because a lot of people don't lean into that. And so sorry. Not to knock the younger generation. They haven't had a lot of practice at it.
So those of you who have been around a lot longer and have more experience, we have a lot of practice at that. You need to sell that. You need to lean into that, especially I mean, look at I I love how, Amy, you know, you had your your list and you figured out these are the things I'd love to do, and you went and created the role that that you wanted. A lot of that, I promise you, is because of your ability to negotiate and communicate those human skills and to let the stakeholder know what you want and why you wanted it and how it benefited them.
You've been laid off twice. You're resilient. You've got roles quickly. Again, that's that human skill that you're very good at, but not everybody is as brilliant as you, Amy, and can do that.
Like, I'd still be trying like, upset and, you know, woe is me. Like, this is a second layoff. I you know, not everybody can do that. And, again, reach out to your tribe.
Lean into your network. Lean into partners like myself that can help you with that. But those soft skills are absolutely very important even in entry level to be able to communicate and to be able to stick around and grow your path at that company for more than just entry level.
Thank you. And, Amy, I wanna come to you for, another one of these, you know, one of these questions that we have, in the q and a. What advice would you give to Solo Abner with years of experience who currently wears multiple hats, how to stand out in the crowded market? And I don't know. Maybe some of your recent experience of, like, standing out as well as having having having the ability to craft that new role for yourself. But how for solo admins that are, I don't know, stranded maybe, how do they do that?
I think that's an interesting spot to be in. A lot of, solo admins that I've spoken with are very enamored when they are looking from the outside, being a solo admin at consulting.
Being a consultant is wildly different though.
So I would say that if the solo admin is looking to switch roles to get real clear on the path that you wanna take, What do you like about being a solo admin?
Talk to some consultants, reach out to people on LinkedIn and say, hey. Run me through a day in the life, and I guarantee you, you're gonna get a lot of consultants that are gonna run you through the day in the life.
Because I have seen over the years many admins making the jump because the salary is a little bit better and then, woah, you're not ready to be in ten different orgs at one time and not having to care so much about process. You have to get what's done on the SOW, only.
So I would really recommend in particularly in this market, utilize your network on LinkedIn.
Go you have no idea of the other world that happens in the DMs on LinkedIn. What everybody's posting is one thing, but the conversations, the offers, the opportunities are happening in the DMs, and it's all based on the network that you've built. So I would strongly leverage that talking from personal experience.
Being laid off twice, I, it's a little embarrassing to go put that publicly. Right? Especially when you're in the spotlight or whatever for so many years and you get, oh, I got let go. The first thing I did, I just threw that out the window and I made my list and sent a, email.
Said, hey. This is what happened. I'm looking for this. If you can help me, great.
So I would really recommend that for anybody on the call to just utilize that network. Don't be afraid to reach out.
Everyone's aware of what this market is right now.
Everyone is super helpful. So take advantage of this horrible market. Reach out and build that network because it is going to be what gets you the job, honestly.
And on your profile, it says LinkedIn helped me find this job as well.
I saw that saw that today before in preparation for the call.
He reached out to me because he saw me on LinkedIn. So that was literally what happened in both of my layoff situations. They pursued me, which is not really happening right now. So I was privileged to have that happen, but it was because of me showing up. I had a personal branding plan for years.
So I've done that and I just utilize that network. I can't emphasize that enough to everybody. Just network is everything.
Yeah. Absolutely.
As aside from network and having having some great soft skills, which we've which we've spoken about a a bunch recently and, you know, one of the things that makes me really happy about this panel is how is the focus on the human element. If anybody follows me on LinkedIn or any of these platforms, I talk about the human element of all this stuff all the time. So, yay, thank you. I love and appreciate you love and appreciate you all for that. But, Matt, I wanted to come to you.
There's a question in the chat that I was was kinda wanna combine with another question that I had prepared for you anyway.
There is a question about pivoting into the roles, and somebody has asked, what advice can you give to somebody who wants to make a career change into DevOps in today's market? Is it safe to do so? And the question I was gonna ask you, what's, are some of the more niche technical skills that people need to or that can they can lean on to be successful, when job hunting?
Yeah. I have thought about this one a lot lately. So if you think about and and to go in a history lesson. Right?
Like, sixty percent, seventy percent of our jobs today that we all perform didn't exist in nineteen forty. So when you think about that, like, we're on that cusp once again. Right? You usually figure agent force.
You'll hear AI. If you're not jaded already, it's coming. It's here to stay.
Like, you can't find it. Right? Just like flows. They're they're they're here.
And so it's an interesting time if if you see, right, as a as a new person coming into the ecosystem. There's not a lot of junior roles. Like, a lot you know, you hear the hit the ground running. Right? And that's because when companies need to do more with less, they don't have the time to to hire those juniors if your team's already stressed out. Right? That's unfortunately just the the name of the game.
But as that market starts to relax, you know, the election in the US will will relax and and and do something one way or another potentially.
Those new junior roles are gonna come in. Right? As you see, consultants we're needing to step the bench as they get these data cloud and DevOps and, prompt pieces out. A lot of us who've been in the ecosystem for a long time, like, we have a stuck mindset.
Right? Like, we do things a certain way. Like, we we just do. Right? Like, we pick up these these inherent biases.
As new tech comes out, this is that perfect opportunity for juniors to grab that information and run with it. You can you have a a fresh field even, in junior to, like, associate to even maybe maybe senior. Right? You have that ability to pick up all this information and run with it.
So if you're wanting to go into DevOps, if you're wanting to go into prompt engineering, I encourage you, gobble that up. Right? Become that expert. Put that information out there.
Become your own consultant. And I'm not saying, like, hey. Start up an LLC and consult. Right?
But build those problems and show that example. You might not have the professional experience, but you are the expert within a novel environment. We see this all the time with even new programming languages.
So focus on that. It's gonna be a rough couple years, but this is gonna shake out. And I would also encourage you, if you wanna go into DevOps, there's other DevOps outside of Salesforce.
I know that's that's not trained to say on a Salesforce podcast. Right? But the ecosystem existed well before Salesforce. So if you get excited about things like prompt engineering or DevOps, you don't have to do it just in Salesforce.
Go out and find that. Taking those outside skills that you've learned and applying them to Salesforce, that is amazing. Like, those are the unicorns that I look for when hiring is like, hey. Cool.
What what's what are the problems you can solve outside of just that box? So if someone wants to go into DevOps, look for it. But you're not gonna find them in a company my size. Right?
You're gonna have to go up to a consultant or or a Fortune one hundred. So you have to be, you know, real with yourself in, like, what kind of environment do you wanna work in? Because if you wanna go in a niche skills, you're gonna have to work in a bigger environment right now. But if you wanna be that all star player, yeah, get a smaller environment.
So I think it it really comes back to, once again, what do you love, what do you not like, you know, both from a skill set and and a company culture.
Yeah. That's such great and such great advice, Matt. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Yeah. There's there's so many questions, and, we've got around fifteen minutes or so left. And I don't know if we're gonna be able to cover them because there's so many great points and so many, so many so much room for discussion.
But I wanna throw this out to throw this one out to to the panelists. So we talked we talked about the job descriptions and then being thrown together.
Would it be safe to say it's within reason to apply for positions that are in requirements terms just outside of your qualifications?
I will jump on this Absolutely. Within reason.
If you see in a dire job description that says, like, ten years and must know this, like, have an honest conversation. Right? Like, it's much like, we'll get spammed with a bunch of applications, and it it's exhausting to go through and be like, okay. No.
You have zero background experience. Right? I'd much rather, if that's the case, like, reach out personally versus apply and say, I don't need these. If you just throw it into our ATS, you're gonna get missed, but follow-up with that.
But that's I mean, apply within reason. I I'm sure there might be some disagreement with that.
Sarah?
No. I love that. I mean, I think I I have been in that position as well, Matt, where you're going. Why would you apply?
But, like, for sure, go and have the conversation because if you're hiring for, attitude trained for skill, you might find this incredible person. And and early in my career, I was lucky enough to have a couple of times where we were hiring, and we just interviewed this person. And they weren't right for the role we were hiring. We were like, we cannot let them go.
So we need to find a job for them. And so, again, in that space of making sure you have those conversations, reach out, Amy, to your to your community.
And I think, also the Salesforce community. Just one thing I wanted to add to that, you know, go and have those conversations with people there. I think the other thing I would say just to, like, build on that, Matt, is that women as a whole, not all of us, but as a whole, we are less likely to apply for something we don't hit a hundred percent of the boxes are. So, Matt, whilst I appreciate what you're saying, I would also say to anyone who is potentially underrepresented, not just women in tech, there are a lot of other people who do not hit a hundred percent of those requirements applying. So please do that, and reach out and have those conversations because, we I know when I was applying for roles, if I if I saw something as a requirement and I didn't have it, I wouldn't apply. So that would be my my invitation is, you know, yeah, there is a happy balance when you apply for everything, and you can probably do you're probably harder on yourself than anyone else would be.
Amy, I saw you come off mute as well.
Yeah. I think that if you're a hundred percent qualified, you're overqualified for that job.
And when I look at it, if I'm hitting fifty percent of what they're asking for, I'm applying.
And that's just my personal strategy because, I'm a Gen x, and I figure it out. You know what I mean?
So like Sarah said before, you know, the your hiring skill set and it's it's happened so much to me that that, at the beginning of my career, I did apply for things that maybe I wasn't qualified for, but they were like, oh, Amy's on the market. We need to grab Amy, and they found me something. So I don't ever wanna discourage anybody from unless, you know, I'm not gonna go apply for a doctor role. Nobody wants that. But, in the Salesforce ecosystem, fifty percent or, you know, sometimes forty percent of the requirements I'm applying.
Thank you. Thank you. It's great great to great to hear the opinions around around this thing. It's always such an interest interesting topic.
And and, Sarah, you're right. I think, men typically are more confident just to just go for it, so to speak, and see what happens. And, you know, the more that we can encourage women that you've got the skills too, you've got just the same amount of skills, that you can't that the men have to be successful. Just have Yeah.
Have the gumption to do it. You know?
And to all those men, keep doing it.
Like, don't stop. It's a it's a it's great.
Yeah. Stephanie, when it comes to you for for this one, around another topic that we've that we've already talked about, but besides the obvious answer of money, why do you besides the obvious answer of money, why do you what do you think is driving the hard pivot to doing a lot more with less than there has been in the past, especially with tech roles?
I mean, a lot of it is budget.
It it is money, and it's and it's the policies of, you know, again, the back to the office policies. I mean, the the hiring managers are just like us. They're doing they're doing more with less, and they're being given, you know, from leadership or from the top, like, this is what you've gotta do.
But it it does a lot of it does just come down to to money and budgets. I mean, they're not wanting to be a holes. It's not it's not like they're doing this just to make you miserable. It's just, you know, if if you've ever managed a team, you've got a certain budget that you can work with that is allocated to to certain, you know, parts of of the role, and you can only spend that.
You know? You you you know, you're gonna fight for more money, but at the end of the day, everybody is holding we're in a bad economy. I think as Sarah Sarah said, this is a horrible market. You know?
This is and and it is unprecedented in tech. We don't know. This this hasn't happened before. But like Matt said, you know, sixty percent of the roles that we're in today didn't exist when we were growing up.
I didn't I didn't grow up saying I wanted to be, you know, a Salesforce administrator.
You know, this is I was gonna be a pediatrician.
You know, can't do that job. You know? But no. It's it it really is, about the money.
And, yes, I know, like, the the economy is to some isn't bad, but to a lot, it it is. They really are you know, they're trying to figure out companies, you know, they have they they have overhead operating costs. They've got to pay their employees. They've got to pay those benefits.
You know? They gotta be able to allow them to go on PTO. There's a lot of things that go into this that you're not privy that that employees aren't always privy to, that leadership has to make some hard decisions, and where to spend the money, where does it go, how do we take care of our teams from a holistic, because it's it in some sense, it's not just about money. It's about making sure they have the the right hardware to do the job, you know, for those who are working from home, making sure they have all the right resources, making sure that they've got the right, resources available to take care of their mental health.
There's, you know and a lot of these things, you know, they're all services, and they and they cost they cost money.
I hope I answered that.
I hope that made sense.
Yeah. At the at the end of the day, like, we can't overlook the economic factors or of what what is happening, with budgets and, you know, we I I think if anybody anybody in here is on any kind of selling side of any of these spectrums in tech or what have you, there's a lot of that pressure. Map budgets, things like that in companies. What what what have what have you got for us, things around that?
Oh, man. It's, twenty twenty four, and, venture capital, if you're in tech, isn't as free as it used to be. So, you know, that used to be right. Like, hey. Buy all the tools and buy buy all the people. Right?
That's not the case anymore. It's, we're looking very carefully. Right? And it's now more, okay.
We can't net add. How do we shift across teams? Right? How do we negotiate with our peers to say, like, hey.
Do you need that person? Because we need a a seat on this side.
And it even goes within tooling. Right? Especially, you know, bringing on sales and things like you hear in the ecosystem a lot. Like, just buy this tool, buy this tool, buy this tool.
Well, that requires money, which comes from budgets, and that also requires people to implement. And so we have those tough conversations now of, like, okay. Do we need a piece of tech, or do we need people in process? Right?
Can we make process to free up time which then frees a lot of people? So I know it's very hard, especially if you're at that IC level or mid management, just to be like, hey. Like, we're getting pushed back a lot. Like but if you're in a good company, we're having these conversations a lot, and it there's so much that you're just not privy to a lot of the times as we talk.
Even as a director. Right? There's times my CTO knows way more than than I do about why we're making something. So I always position it as, like, position your value.
If you find a dream company and they're not hiring, keep talking to them. Eventually, that budget will free up, especially if you look in January, February, March post in the US, post election, and also new budgets. So keep up in mind and get to a hiring manager, especially if it's a dream company, early on. And as those budgets free up, we would much rather hire somebody we've already talked to than have to go through an entire interview process. So when it comes to budgets, if you're hearing they're getting tight, keep those conversations now. You'll be surprised what happens when budgets free up.
Yeah.
I wanna give each, each panelist, one one last one last bit of advice for the audience from from each of you, and, I'll let you fight amongst yourself with who who wants to go go first in answering this. But in terms of one one bit of advice from each of you about, about the job market and what your message to people that are looking to make a change or looking to secure the next role. What's the one the one key thing that you would say to each person in this room?
And, again, you can you can you can fight over who wants to go first or last. Me. Amy's on mute. So Amy's first.
I've already given my answer, really, so it's just kind of a repeat, but your network.
I applied I'm I didn't even track it. I didn't keep a spreadsheet. I didn't put it in my Salesforce dev org. Nothing. I was just applying, applying, applying, applying, applying, and it was mentally debilitating.
And I just started refocusing and working on my network, going through and really, who do I know?
Where do they work? Are they hiring?
How can I get a a call? Because I knew if I could get on a call with somebody, that would be, immense, and I wouldn't be just a a number in a ATSQ or whatever.
So your network is everything. So focus on that. I know it's difficult right now.
Interviewing is a gauntlet. This the things that I'm hearing from, you know, my friend Melinda, who's got to take all kinds of weird cognitive tests and technical tests, and then, you know, you don't hear anything or you're ghosted. It's the it's really ridiculous right now, but that's just because the market is flooded and the people are overwhelmed with their pickings. They can pick anybody right now. So just really rely on your network and focus in on those what you love and what you don't love and go after that.
I would like to add to that, piggyback off of what Amy said, leaning into your network. And, yeah, it is a job. It's it's a really, rough time out there. Let's put it that way.
With the communities that I work with, I see it a lot. I get the DMs. I I hear when people are getting laid off. You see it on socials.
There even at Salesforce, people brilliant people getting laid off, let go, and moving on to the next chapter. It it's it's a hard market out there. Lean into your network and go on LinkedIn. When you if there's a role that you're applying for, find out who you're connected to at that company.
Find out who the the employees that work there that know people that you know, and then connect with them and ask them to give you a warm reference and a warm recommendation so that the hiring team know who you are. Let them know you've applied. This makes it less risk for the hiring managers when they've got someone that they know who is basically giving a recommendation to someone who's in the hiring process. Because like Matt said, you get all these resumes that you have to weed through, and you just don't have the time or the mental capacity to weed through that.
So if someone that they know is saying, hey. This person wants to work with you. Here's a resume. They've applied.
They'll go straight to it. It's like it's it's getting a warm introduction. It's putting you ahead of everybody else. Like, that is one of the ways that that one of the best ways to to stand out in the market and especially in this market.
Have a social presence. Matt and Amy on this panel are great on it at LinkedIn. That's how I know Matt. I see his thought leadership, what he's posting on.
It it resonates with me. And Amy, engage with those kind of posts. Hiring managers are gonna go look and look for your social presence. They're gonna see what you're engaging with.
They're gonna see what you're commenting on. They wanna know how you think, and there's nothing wrong with that. Let them see who you are. That's another part of the, of the process.
And again, especially in the Salesforce market, specialize. You you can't be a generalist anymore. You CPQ, what prompt engineers, data cloud, commerce cloud, go skill up in those areas of where there is a there is still a demand for and there's not enough people who know how to do the do the role. And, again, a partner a partner with me.
I am at rock search. We will we won't ghost you. We won't allow hiring managers to ghost you. We won't allow hiring managers to put you through ridiculous hiring processes, and we'll give you feedback if you don't get the role.
That's part of what we do for you. So, again, different ways. It is a hard market, but lean into your tribe and your network. You don't have to go it alone.
Yeah.
To add on, right, networking but networking doesn't have to be what you think it is. Right? You don't have to go to an event and if you're an introvert, right, sit there and and go around people. I think the biggest success story I had was just someone who applied for my for one of the roles I was hiring and reached out with an amazing DM.
And it showed me that, like, hey. They have that gumption. Right? They came out and said, hey.
I want I want this role. And they told me exactly why they wanted the role. You know, they've said they're nodding their head along and that connected to me. And if you do that as a hiring manager, I can't say all of them do it, but if you're on LinkedIn at least or on email and you reach out, a lot of the times we go, okay.
Cool. This person went a little butt bit above beyond. It doesn't have to be a lot. Right?
Just enough to show, hey. I went that little bit extra because you want that role and you want it to look at your resume. It doesn't have to be something great. A comment in, on on in the comments here was like, hey.
I see a role and a hundred people applied. Don't let that fool you. That's LinkedIn metrics trying to drive LinkedIn.
If you click on that button and you never apply, it shows as an application.
Those could be a hundred applications. Ninety seven of those could suck.
I know for a fact. Right? So apply.
Secondly, please don't use the same template as everybody else for your resume. I can't tell you how many times our eyes just bleed after seeing the same resume after a resume. It doesn't stick out. But please don't go the other extreme and put a bunch of graphics on it. Make a happy little medium. But if you're using that same template over and over again, like, it doesn't help us, like, weed through it and and and tell your story in it. And and I think that would be my parting advice.
Cheers, man. Sarah?
I'll try to be super sweet and short. One is just to back what everyone else set up with some science relationships or how work gets done.
And that happens at work, but it's also in this job market. And I think the other one is just kind of backing on what everybody's been talking about, the science of of happiness and and thinking about what makes you happy and what brings you joy, actually makes you way more creative at work. And for me in the Salesforce ecosystem, we don't think about this as being a creative job, but holy cow is it. All you're doing is problem solving. And so if you find yourself being able to be passionate and happy, you are something like fifty percent more creative than someone who is not, happy in what they're doing. And so just try to unlock that. I love Amy's Amy's tip of what do you love, what don't you love, but find that passion and and bring it to whatever the role is you're doing.
Salesforce else elsewhere. Yeah. Heath, I think it's one of the most creative jobs I've ever had too. But it's funny because people don't think about it as creativity. So so find out how you can tap into that creativity, and and that's you're gonna harness that part of your brain, which is what will make you successful.
Folks, thank you so much. What a wonderful panel. If you are still here and in the chat, shower some love. Shower some love. I wish this had, the emerging reactions like, you know, Google Meets does so we could all see how much love, the these panelists deserve.
I feel like we could talk do run a hundred more of these panels and still not be done, with things to talk about. So thank you so much for being so gracious with your time. Thank you for tuning in to the webinar, everybody that has. Recording will be sent out to everybody that's registered as well, so you'll get to go back and listen to these wonderful folks, if there is anything you wanna come back to. Thank you, everybody.
Thank you.
Thanks, y'all.
